I totally agree with Dr. Mohler's assesment. As a young pastor (27 years old) I have been at the church I am now pastoring for almost 4 years now, and when our church has been at its healthies was when we had young men (college age and a little older) really becoming active in our congregation. They were teaching adult Sunday school classes, leading the youth age classes and attending every Sunday and Wednesday. The only problem was that none of them were able to stick around due to the fact that some went to serve on staff at other churches, left for seminary, or their need for employment took them away from us. That is, however, what makes this "strategy" the hardest because of the uncertainty of the young men this age, and where they may be in 5 to 10 years. At least I know that they are in places now that are benefiting from their gained experiences, even though we may be suffering from losing them. Sure you can attempt to disciple the older generation, as well you should, but many times I have found that they are more concerned with keeping the status quo (a healthy church budget), than they are deep spiritual growth that leads to a healthy church.

This is great counsel from Mohler, especially for us anxious and impatient young guys. Question though: what if all your young men keep leaving for college and aren't returning? What if you're pastoring in an area without much economic growth, no major university, so all the young studs keep leaving for school, jobs, etc.?

Am I wrong to feel a little sad at the thought that there's little use in trying to reform minds? Instead, we need to just work on forming the new minds and wait for the old ones to die off? What does that tell us about the Holy Spirit, or the efficacy of biblical teaching at reforming churches? That sounds more like psychology, or even business marketing--get them while they're young and they'll be loyal customers.

Why not simply do what Mohler did when he took the presidency at Southern Seminary--make it so the old guard leaves and start over with a fresh, new community? Of course, it's very difficult for Baptist pastors to do that since Baptists are congregational. Mohler just needed to keep the Trustees on his side.

And to second the thoughts of previous posters, I happen to live in a town of 3,000 people where my church's youth ministry can draw 60-80 on Wed nights but the young adult singles class (18-24 yr olds) has about 4 people attending. Where would a church build from there?

Twenty somethings shouldn't be pouring into the younger men, the elders should be.

Mentors and guides should be people with wisdom and experience, not men who are still young themselves. Twenty somethings are still gaining wisdom, they are still in the "strength and vigour" stage of life. Mentorship should be done by those in the "wisdom" stage that comes with age and experience.

I also find something somehow disturbing about encouraging the young men to (essentially) bide their time until they can take over and change stuff.

I have been at the church I am pastoring now for about four years in total; two years as an interim and the past two as a full time senior pastor. This church averaged about 160 in worship before I came and now we are averaging around 225. We have had close to 100 additions over the past two years and God has seen fit to bless the ministry of the Word here in significant ways.

I began preaching through the BIble three years ago beginning in Genesis and this next Sunday we will conclude our study through Numbers.

We have had several leave the church because the preaching in the Old Testament was just too boring for them. BUt on the other hand we have had a remarkable awakening among some of our seniors.

Just this past Sunday I had a 0ver 60 year old adult say to me with tears that they now love God because of the Old Testament preaching.

This is not unusual here at Lakeland. Expositional preaching was not the method of ministry from most of her pastors over the past fifty years, with one exception. I discovered that the seniors were starved for Biblical truth and they have received it very well for the most part.

Let me encourage those of you who are young to faithfully exposit the Scriptures and counsel out of them to your members and those who love the Word will stay and those who do not will find a way to leave.

Let all of your counsel come from the SCripture. HOld your people to its teachings without exception.

We also adminstered a new member's class that lasts for six weeks where I teach all prospective members the doctrines of the Church and then we do a personal interview with each one desiring to become a member. ON the application for church membership we have them write out their testimony and then give a list of Biblical evidences tha they are converted.

It is this last question that has opened up a great many opportunities to talk over the gospel with all prospective members. For most this is something they had never had to think about before.

Let me implore you to treat the elders with respect and not disdain give them the benefit of the doubt. Their lives may be the way they are because they have not had solid food for a real long time.

It does take a long time to restore a person to health if they have not eaten well for several years.

REspectfully Submitted Pastor Phil

Reminder ~ This idea is not new.

Numbers 14:26-35 26 ¶ And the LORD spoke to Moses and to Aaron, saying, 27 "How long shall this wicked congregation grumble against me? I have heard the grumblings of the people of Israel, which they grumble against me. 28 Say to them, 'As I live, declares the LORD, what you have said in my hearing I will do to you: 29 your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness, and of all your number, listed in the census from twenty years old and upward, who have grumbled against me, 30 not one shall come into the land where I swore that I would make you dwell, except Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun. 31 But your little ones, who you said would become a prey, I will bring in, and they shall know the land that you have rejected. 32 But as for you, your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness. 33 And your children shall be shepherds in the wilderness forty years and shall suffer for your faithlessness, until the last of your dead bodies lies in the wilderness. 34 According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, a year for each day, you shall bear your iniquity forty years, and you shall know my displeasure.' 35 I, the LORD, have spoken. Surely this will I do to all this wicked congregation who are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall come to a full end, and there they shall die."

Have you seen this site where people confess their sins anonymously, online at http://iconfessmyself.blogspot.com

Don't give up completely on the old guys! I was 50 and had been a leader/teacher in my church (Liberal/Seeker mentality) since I was in my 20’s when God broke my heart, opened my mind to the Doctrines of Grace, and set me on fire for the Gospel.

I would encourage you to pray daily for local Elders who, like me, can have their minds changed by the Holy Spirit.

mrpages, please reveal your true identity and stop hiding behind this mrpages title. You seem to argue with every point made on this site, which is fine, but to hide is a bit, well let me say, immature. Respectfully, a twenty-something.

Tim Fanus, Guilford Baptist Church, member

Many good points, e.g. Phil Nelson's post. I've also been grateful to see the Lord do remarkable work through his Word and Spirit among older church members. In fact, few things are more exciting to see than long time members discover a new passion for gospel truths and gain a new sense of ownership for the church's work of ministry. Thank you all for the counter-balancing points.

Tim,

I don't argue with every point made here. In fact, I am quite in agreement with most things said. When I do disagree, however, I say so. I try to say so respectfully and I try to explain my position fully. I expect (and rarely get, which is sometimes disturbing) someone to discuss matters with me and attempt to change my mind.

If my disagreement bothers you, I'd like to ask you why. Is this not a place for discussion? I am not trolling, in that am *quite* open to changing my opinion if anyone cares to discuss the matter or deal with the issues I raise regarding the post.

I understand that someone doing nothing but constantly aggressively arguing every post with no real intent to discuss or evaluate the responses received is an annoyance worthy of banning from discussion. However, I don't think I do any of that.

The relevance of my questions or comments has little to do with my real name. I choose not to use my real name for many reasons, most of which deal with my children and family. If you wish to email me privately via the contact link on my website I will quite happily converse with you via email or telephone using my real name.

Accusations of immaturity are a bit out of line, I think.

That's the problem within many churches today. Many young pastors come in with no respect for the old guard and instead of having a humble heart think they know everything.

MrPages, thanks for the discussion; however, how do I link to your contact link on your website? For some reason I'm not finding it.

My apologies to using the word "immature" but let me ask you this, why do you believe that twenty-somethings (ones that have been gifted by God to be elders) should not be discipled and encouraged to disciple ones that are younger in the faith? (Is it a generation thing nowadays? Where twenty-something men are not like they once used to be...then in another 20 years, will you say that the thirty-somethings shouldn't be discipling either, so on and so forth?)

And I understand trying to keep things confidential in one sense, but unless your last name is Pages, then I believe using your first name is more than safe.

Tim,

I've written and reworked and removed a few thousand words about youth, experience, eldership, and a number of other topics before deciding that I really need to simplify and clarify. I likely should have done this before posting the first time (the joys of reading an entire conversation summarized to 10 lines).

Mark's discussion seems to be regarding the new pastor arriving at an existing church with the intention of "reforming" it. His point about using the younger men to do so is slightly oblique to the concept of mentorship that I addressed. I'll try to stay closer to topic next time. For everyone's sake, I won't start on the main topic on this one. :)

As for your direct questions about 20-somethings, I think we're at false opposition here. I don't think that "20-somethings shouldn't disciple younger folks" is a hard and fast rule, per se. I think that 20-somethings shouldn't be the ones to disciple the younger folks because (a) they shouldn't need to because the older folks are doing it, and (b) they are busy working and making mistakes and learning from them so that when they get to be older and wiser they can mentor the younger folks. It's the difference between "shouldn't" and "shouldn't have to".

Many in their 20s wants to teach and mentor and impart all their wisdom. Many in their 20's consider themselves wise. Everyone in their 40's looks back on their 20's and wonders how they could have been so naive. So, I don't think that 20-somethings shouldn't mentor as much as they really aren't the best folks to be doing it.

However, we've also recently run into the problem that is implied in the original post: a situation where the older folks aren't interested in mentoring or leading, or are moving in a "wrong" direction. What do you do then? Mark's stance seems to be that moving the younger men into their place is an appropriate solution. I'm not sure I agree, but I'm also not sure what else can be done.
My original post was simply indication that I think young men mentoring younger men is a corruption of the desired order. If there is no other choice, then needs must. However I'm not sure that "they don't do things the way we like" is tantamount to "no other choice".

Oh, and if you go to wonderfulpages.com there is a "Contact Us" link on the right hand side at the very top.