RE: Changing Denominations
It's an interesting question you guys ask there. Speaking of being a company man, Al Mohler--for whom I work--has done several radio shows lately about the doctrinal chaos that is America's mainline denominations. The Episocopal Church USA has ignited a worldwide controversy over its insistence on ordaining open, practicing homosexuals, and just last week, the PCUSA took another step in the same direction. One of the questions Dr. Mohler asked on the radio show was "How long are you supposed to stay in a denomination that's going off the rails? When do you leave?" For alot of conservative Christians who are hanging in there with those denominations, the answer is "You wait a LONG time." Some of them go so far as to say that as long as the foundational documents are sound, it doesn't matter what else is going on. You don't leave until they make the statement of faith heretical.
Me? I'd leave either one of those churches, and kudos I say to churches like Truro and Falls Church who have cut the ropes and seem on course to take their property with them. When a denomination goes as far off the rails as ECUSA, it's time for biblical Christians to launch the life-rafts and let the ship sink.*
As for the question at hand, no, I could never stop being a credo-Baptist. That's a theological and biblical conviction, not one I can simply trade in because I like another church. But yea, I suppose I could see myself changing denominations. If I saw the need, I could be another kind of Baptist than Southern Baptist. But I couldn't just start being a Presbyterian; that would require that I trade in my whole vision of what the church is and ought to be.
I agree with you entirely, Mike, about the person who moves to a city where there are no healthy Baptist churches. Send a new or immature Christian to the best spiritual nourishment in town. On the other hand, if it's a spiritual Navy Seal you're dealing with, maybe then you strap a gas mask on 'em, send 'em in, and see what happens.
* Could I possibly pack another metaphor in that paragraph?
Posted by: Greg G | Jul 2, 2008 1:21:21 PM
So, how does a Baptist who has joined an unhealthy church go about working to improve the church? Imagine a Baptist who has joined a purpose-driven church led by one pastor (no elder system here) who preaches 3-point sermons in which every point begins with the same letter, and the church uses a never-ending series of programs to attract the unchurched, and has a church membership role about 8 times larger than a good Sunday's attendance because anyone can walk the aisle and be a member is 5 minutes. What would be your recommendations for that Baptist?
Posted by: Bruce | Jul 2, 2008 2:50:13 PM
Find another church Bruce. You can't change the church if the leadership does not have at least the goal of IX Marks. That doesn't mean that the church you attend has to have all those 9 marks. But if the pastor does not even have that as a vision, you may have to find a Presbyterian (or non-denominational, etc.) church. You don't have to become a Presbyterian, but if it's Reformed and has the 9 marks, go there.
Posted by: Carlo Rose | Jul 3, 2008 12:15:35 AM
You said, "But I couldn't just start being a Presbyterian; that would require that I trade in my whole vision of what the church is and ought to be."
Those kind of statements make me uncomfortable. I've had to trade in my vision of what such and such ought to be" many times because part of being a Christian is repenting of what you believe that is not Biblical.
I'm not accusing you of anything like, but in public discourse, and as a Presbyterian (PCA) former Baptist, former Arminian, I would be more comfortable if you made your statements based on Biblical grounds.
Posted by: Bill | Jul 3, 2008 1:01:48 AM
I'm not sure I agree with you Carlo. I was not the first guy to start the reform at Third Avenue Baptist, but even by the time I got there, it's hard to say that the leadership was sold on reform. If it's a small church, you just love the people, be energetic, throw yourself into ministry and leadership where you can, and in time you'll very likely be recognized in some fashion or another as one of the church's leaders. Then you'll be able to exert even more influence. That's what happened at Third. In time, a majority of the deacons were younger men who were reform-minded, and the church changed pretty quickly then ("quickly" in retrospect---in the moment, it felt like it took forever).
If it's a large church, it might be a longer road, but I think the advice still holds: Love, work, and minister. Maybe that will result in your being recognized as a leader, maybe not. But either way, you're doing what the Lord would have you do.
Posted by: Greg G | Jul 3, 2008 1:03:14 AM
Bill, thanks for writing. Of course I would give up my vision of the church if I became convinced it wasn't biblical. But that's the point:
The statement you quote is just shorthand for "I've studied the issues of baptism and regenerate church membership, and I'm fully convinced that Scripture teaches what credobaptists say it does, and not what paedobaptists say it does. Because I'm convinced of that, and until I become convinced otherwise, I can't just become a Presbyterian. That would require me to act against faith and against conscience."
Thanks again for commenting, Bill. I hope that's clearer.
Posted by: Greg G | Jul 3, 2008 1:09:27 AM
Greg,
I don't know much about Third Avenue but I wonder if the experience at a Baptist church near a large Baptist seminary that was undergoing reform is likely to repeat outside a similar context. You mention younger men finding leadership roles, but your community is filled with young Baptist men looking for that opportunity. Most Baptist churches have few younger men, let alone younger men who are spiritual Navy SEALs prepared for a long insurgency.
By the way, this issue is important to me as I just moved to Lakeland, FL--Al Mohler's hometown--and find myself looking for a church.
Posted by: Bruce | Jul 3, 2008 9:14:04 AM