Deepak - very insightful list. Do you think these things *should* have been taught at seminary? Or would "learning" such things in a classroom simply have been impossible - thus they should be left to church experience / ministry?

Did you go to the Seminary in Arlington Texas. I could make a list as long, of things that I was not taught in Seminary. I think I just might make a list soon.

Dee,

I would have emailed this to you, but I don't have your email address. Please accept my brotherly push-back, and know that it comes with a big smile and a wish I could say these things in person. Hopefully our paths will cross again soon. I miss you, brother.

Really? Don't knowledge of Bible and theology, critical thinking skills, and an ability to articulate yourself clearly come into play in every one of the 17 things you mention?

At one level I know what you mean. Of course there wasn't a class on how to fire someone. There shouldn't be. But neither was every single verse in the whole Bible thoroughly exegeted in the classes we took--there simply isn't time to do that. Does that mean that Seminary didn't help us to interpret those verses that didn't get covered in a particular class?

I submit that if seminary helped us to understand the Bible, it helps us to do every one of the 17 things you list above. If seminary helped us understand the gospel, theology proper, anthropology, and God's sovereignty, then it helped us to do every one of these things. And, if the papers we wrote and the teachers we heard helped us learn to use words, logic, and even sensitivity to people and situations, it helped us do every one of these things.

I love you, brother!

Jim

How to implement church discipline.
How to rest.
How to combat sexual temptation.
How to have friends in your church without others feeling excluded.

I think there are some important things on that list that just cannot be learned in seminary. Dealing with death and marital issues just cannot be taught. I had a class at RTS that talked about them, but you have to experience those things, you have to suffer along with your people.

However, there are several things that need to be taught in seminary that should be drawn out from your list.

1) Management Issues

I know, I know...I believe in the distinction between a business and a church, and I believe that strongly. But some simple principles on management and leadership could really go a long way. We did have a class at RTS that dealt with some of these issues, including a budget. But each church is different, so it takes the personal experience of a particular place to feel your way through some of those things.

2) Ministerial & Worship

I certainly believe that a seminary should be training pastors to do the Lord's Supper, baptisms, weddings, and funerals, and anything else that can be added here. Our evangelical schools do not deal with this sufficiently. We should have a lot more classes on worship and worship practices than those that are there.

Just my two cents...JHG

How to guide a church and elder board when one of their pastors commits adultery and then in the aftermath the pastor exhibits more Godly/Christ-like behavior than the church and elders do.

How to get a pastorate.

Otherwise, I really appreciate Jim's response above.

Ha!I did a weekend class that covered number 10. But that one would be the least of my worries of of that list.

I think these type of comments about seminaries are helpful. However, I think for the most part seminaries are not viewed properly from the church's perspective. For example, if seminary is viewed (merely) as a tool to be used in concert by both a student and a church, then the things listed aren't as big of an issue. For example, the same observations could be made about a book...a book doesn't teach alot of practical things, you have to go out there and do them. A church would be in error if they gave someone a systematic theology textbook to read, but didn't walk along side of them as they read it. In the same way, a seminary is something that should be pursued by both a student and a church. This is difficult when the seminary is not close...but, perhaps not enough has been said or written about how the church can be involved in the seminary student's life...?

There are probably things I would add, but there are some that I would remove as well. Some I was actually taught.

For #10, I would say that is not really something I would expect a seminary to teach, that is what tax people are for.

Number 12 should not be a primary task of the pastor. He should have input on budget stuff, but organizing it and managing it is not in any way part of pastoral ministry. That should be the task of others in the congregation so that pastor can be freed to pray and preach the word. It is adding tasks like that to a pastor's job that contributes to pastoral burnout IMHO

Insightful list. Seminary gives you a start on the study of the Scripture, which has answers to most of those questions. And here are a few more observations I would like to graciously offer:

1. Numbers 1-9 you could learn at any of the many NANC training centers.

2. #10, should be done with the help of a good accountant, and or church treasurer.

3. #11, I think the pastor should not be the chair of the Elders.

4. #12, Church budgeting should be done by the Treasurer, Elders, and or Deacons.

5. #16 There is always classes on Logos software, in many locations around the country. And, there is most likely a computer geek with in any church who could help.

6. The other items I am not qualified to comment on, so I won't.

Respectfully,
Scott, (Deacon, & NANC Certified Counselor)

Many of the items on the list you learn through experience. Some of the best lessons I learned were learned by observing my father who was a pastor (same church for 28+ years) and from a pastor I served under (for 12 years) who had the meekness of Moses and the wisdom of Solomon.

As for navigating the IRS tax code for pastors, doing a wedding and a funeral, and administrating the Lord's Supper ... I learned in my undergraduate classes 30 years ago.

This is a comment to Jared. I'd first point out to them that all of the blessings they received from Pastor X weren't fake; think of all those who were truly blessed by the ministry of Judas Iscariot. Then I'd spend a lot of time with them studying Jesus' encounter with the woman who was caught in adultery. Then I'd go to the parable of the prodigal son. Then I'd probably spend time in 1 and 2 Corinthians concerning the immoral man. Then maybe in 1 John, studying true and false Christians. Then maybe the requirements for elders (which I'd presume also apply to pastors).

If you're currently in this tough situation, may the Lord use you to call all of them (including Pastor X) to be what the Lord says his people are and can be.

Interesting this post should find it's way to me. I was at the London Theological Seminary open day on Saturday and issues such as these were ones brought forward by Basil Howlett, Preaching and Pastoral Theology lecturer.

It's good to see that a seminary can see the importance of dealing with these all important questions.

The list expresses with honesty areas of weakness that many seminarians feel upon graduation. But the point is well taken that the seminary gives tools for biblical study which results in applications that answer those questions.

Many comments have mentioned the church as the context for learning these answers. But more needs to be said, namely that it is integral for ministry candidates to be mentored.

Without mentoring, seminary grads flounder through 'rookie mistakes' even as they try to apply the bible correctly. Imbalance, majoring-on-minors, myopia, insecurity, all of these are answered by the Scriptures.

But mentoring allows a ministry candidate to benefit from someone else's learning curve.

When I taught at a seminary, it was easy to see the men who were mentored and those who were not. The mentored men were ready for real ministry after seminary. The unmentored men tended to wade through issues like Deepak's list with many more errors, sins, and blindness.

Mentoring is not the total answer. But I do think it is part of the answer

A great reminder of the difference between seminary and discipleship. Each has a role. Thanks.

Pastors need to be taught that all the non-biological problems of life can be handled through God's Holy Word and that ALL pastors can counsel sufficiently from the Word! This includes, but not limited to, those areas that many times the pastor "feels" inadequate to do. Such as: Bipolar, ADD/ADHD, anorexia/bulimia, depression, schizophrenia, homosexuality, fear, etc.

I appreciate your point that pastors should be trained in the context of the local church. We need to think that way more.

On the lighter side, how did you get through SBTS without taking "The Practice of Ministry" with Dr. Walker? He covered weddings and funerals. And how to educate our flock about giving through tax-free trusts!

grace & peace to you!

I disagree with #15... One of the parts of my seminary training was to assist the pastor in serving the Lord's supper and learning all aspects of such a service.

This was something I did not know prior to seminary and learned the finer points since I have been here!

This is exactly why more and more churches are recovering the old practice of seating pastoral training in the church, not in the academy. It is difficult to begin such programs, but both doable and rewarding.

I am the dean of such a program in Bloomington, Indiana. We have two graduates, five current students, and five more coming in in the fall.

If anyone is interested in learning how we do it, please feel free to contact me through http://www.clearnotefellowship.org/training.